Building a desktop... recomendations?

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BlackRider
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Building a desktop... recomendations?

Post by BlackRider »

I'm going to start putting together a desktop... but I nolonger know anything about hardware. I want a machine that can play HL2, DOOM3, Far Cry, and Rome: Total War with full details. I figure if it can do this, then it can play the next gen games fairly well. My ideal budget is under $1000. I can recycle an old case... but everything in it is 4-5 years old.

Am I better off buying a whole PC or building one?

I really can't afford this, but my laptop is falling apart (screen dead, some keys have gone funky, battery won't last long enough to boot...etc.etc.) On top of that, 1/2 of my newer games don't run very well on it.

What should I look in to?

Intel or AMD? nVidia or ATI?
Should I try Alienware?
I have no idea. :(
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XMEN Gambit
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Post by XMEN Gambit »

On your budget, probably forget Alienware.

You probably can get a pre-built cheap, but to make sure it'll do what you want it to do you may want to customize.

I'd recommend a AMD 64 or Sempron, and an inexpensive mobo, definitely 1 GB of RAM. Sweet spot on the hard drive price/performance curve is about 200 or 250 GB. If you do all that, the vid card is the last key factor. I have a GF6800 and love it, but it cost me nearly $300.

My system is very similar to this. I put it together for the LAN party last fall and spent closer to $1500, but that was for everything including 19" monitor, and nice case, and UV stuff, etc. If you cut out the unnecessary stuff, that plus the downward slide on prices might get you under your budget. My system was NOT playing Far Cry well, and I thought it should - then I added another 512 MB to get up to a GB and it was suddenly be-yoo-ti-ful.
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Post by BlackRider »

Actually I can get an Alienware rig for $1,033 + shipping (after a $500 mail-in rebate)

Athlon 64 3800+, 1GB DDR RAM, 80 GB HD, and an ATI RADEON 9550SE.

but I think I'll try bargain hunting and build one over the next month. I just haven't the slightest idea as to where to start. i.e. what mobo?

I can get an Athlon 64 3800 from NewEgg for $359. It says 2.4 GHz... is the whole clock speed thing as important as it used to be? Or will a 2.4 GHz 64 be tons faster than the 1.8 GHz Celeron in my laptop?

I don't know. :\

P.S. I'm going to have to get a second job to afford this... but I think its worth it. :)
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XMEN Gambit
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Post by XMEN Gambit »

IMHO, the Alienware rig is shorting you on disk space and that vid card is not very, er, forward-looking. (SE or LE usually means it's crippled in some way.)

My mobo is a Chaintech VNF3-250. The NF3 means "nforce 3 chipset." There are several things to think about when choosing a mobo, and you'll have to select the one that's right for you.
First is of course CPU. There are two main kinds of current-gen AMD - 754-pin and 939-pin. In general the 939 is better and they'll stop making the 754 before long, but if you don't plan on swapping out processors the 754 is cheaper. The performance difference isn't usually noticable.
The second is the chipset. There are SiS, nForce 3 or 4, and Via chipsets, primarily. I'm partial to the nForce right now, but previously I liked SiS. They're all fairly competitive.
And of course other mobo features: what do you want built in? AC97 sound or 5+1 surround? 100 Mb Ethernet or Gb Ethernet? Do you need SATA or is regular IDE fine? Do you need 4 memory slots? 3? 2?
And manufacturer quality is an important feature, too. What kind of support/warranty do they offer? Is that important to you, or do you want a cheap one you can replace easily if it goes bad? Does the manufacturer have a history of using poor-quality components that create problems later?

Here's a good spot to catch up on mobos: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/

Both the A64 and the Sempron will blow away that Celery. Don't fret. :D Anand's got info on CPUs too (and vid cards, for that matter) if you want to look around his site more. If you don't want or need the 64-bit capability of the A64, think about the Sempron unless the price difference is negligible. It has the same on-chip memory controller that gives those two a big speed boost.

My CPU is a A64 3000+, and I've yet to choke it including playing Far Cry. You may want to save a little cash on a cheaper CPU and putting that into a vid card instead. Or maybe not - your choice.

And regarding the second job, you've got to balance that too. If you spend all your time working, when will you be able to appreciate the toys you buy with the dough? ;)
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Post by BlackRider »

OK... currently I have decided on:

Motherboard: Chaintech VNF4/Ultra ($85)
Processor: AMD Athlon 64 3800+ 90nm ($379)
RAM: Kingston 1GB (2x512) 184 PIN DDR SDRAM DDR 400 ($82)
HD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB 7200 RPM IDE ($120)
Power: Antec SmartPower 2 400W ($55)
Video: XFX Geforce 6800GT 256MB RAM ($322)

Total: $1043

I'm debating on case and sound card... and I will recycle an old CD drive and floppy drive until a few paychecks down the road. If I cut back on the processor then I can save about $150. Too keep a safe money cusion I'll have to spread the purchase of parts over about 4 weeks or borrow some money. I'm thinking of ordering the case, power supply, mobo, and RAM this week, HD the next, then processor, and finally video.

Am I missing anything dumb, or should this work out great? Any borrowing is up to my dad and a second job will only take me up to 50 hours a week. (Only work 30-35 now and a 15-20 hour job shouldn't be too hard to find.) I'm cutting things close with the money, but as long as I have daddy to bail me out I might as well abuse that fact! (jk) All I have to think of it as is a one and a half month school payment. :)

Finally, if anyone sees any possible problems, please speak up... I really don't know what I'm doing here. :p

p.s. THANKS!
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XMEN Iceman
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Post by XMEN Iceman »

I personally think the processor is a little much...I mean a 3200 might save you enough to buy a CDRW/DVDRW drive for like $51 from Newegg and a floppy is only like $9.00.

I like everything else you picked.

You might look at SharkeyExtremes Value system guide. They always have good build for under $1000.

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MVG ... hp/3501646
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Post by BlackRider »

well... my dad offered to pay for the whole thing if I can get enrolled full time in college by fall quarter (If I do that he saves $2000 in taxes... so its a win-win-win!!)

So I might stick with the overkill processor (unless every thing else will be such a bottleneck that the faster processor won't add anything... ???) and add a NEC DVD-R (CD: 48x read, 24x write DVD: 16x read, 8x write) for $46... I already have a floppy drive... and then there's a CPU heat sink fan... and that might be it! Also, I might wind up with a new 19" CRT.

When all of this gets put together I can actually play PC games again! :)

Ice: I got most of the list from an article on AnandTech.com I simply chose everything on their middle range system list and the numbers worked themselves out to close to my budget. (They actually recommended the Athlon 3200+ and I might still go with it or a 3500+... I just want this system to last a couple years before I have to worry about upgrading. Which is why I picked a mobo w/ PCIe slots... since that seems to be the future.)

I'm just giddy at the thought of seeing my 16,000 Roman soldiers marching on 20,000+ Gauls :twisted: )
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XMEN Gambit
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Post by XMEN Gambit »

Here's my logic: Nothing you're going to do right now can use that much CPU. In a couple of years, maybe. Since you got the 939 socket, you know AMD will continue making those for a while so you can use the savings to upgrade the CPU later if you feel the need. Map out the price-performance curve carefully just before you buy, and make the decision then. I always do something like "Ok, starting from this point, $15 more gets me x MHz increase. But the next x MHz costs me $60! Guess I'll go with the 15..." :)

Not sure where the bottleneck would be in that system. Not too much is going to be pushing it, unless you do a lot of 3d ray-tracing or movie encoding.

Need to double-check your prices. I see a Newegg deal on that CPU that's 10 bux less, and it's a retail box which means heatsink/fan is included.

Oh, one more thing. I think that hard disk is ATA 100. You don't want that. If you stick with IDE, get ATA 133.
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Post by BlackRider »

ok, so downgrade the processor... and go with the serial version of the HD?

Everything else look problem free? I'll have to deal check before I start ordering... I'm just grabbing prices from newegg right now.

*edit* This is what the list is now:

Motherboard: Chaintech VNF4/Ultra ($85)
Processor: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 90nm ($203)
RAM: Kingston 1GB (2x512) 184 PIN DDR SDRAM DDR 400 ($82)
HD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150 ($139)
Power: Antec SmartPower 2 400W ($55)
Video: XFX Geforce 6800GT 256MB RAM ($322)
Case: Maxtop something or other ($32)

Total: $918 + $13 shipping :P

what games would bring that to it's knees? (i.e. can I play most everything at max detail? I've never been able to do that before.)
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Post by XMEN Ashaman DTM »

With that system, the only bottle necks are Ram and power coming out of your power supply.

If you get a 939 processor, you'll want to get dual channel memory. Otherwise, you'll never use the 939's memory controller to it's full potential. I know Kingston sells some dual channel memory in the 2X512 range (hyper X, I think). You should have no problem at all finding a good matched pair of memory that is set up for dual channel operation. OCZ, Kingston, Patriot, Crucial, all have great dual channel value ram.

If you don't want to get a matched pair of memory sticks for dual channel operation, go for the 754 processor. Its memory controller is not fully set up for dual channel operation.
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Post by BlackRider »

This is the RAM I have listed:
Kingston ValueRAM 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Unbuffered DDR 400 (PC 3200) Dual Channel Kit System Memory - Retail
Would something like this be worth almost double?
Kingston HyperX 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 333 (PC 2700) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model KHX2700K2/1G - Retail
or DDR 400 PC 3500
or DDR 433 PC 3200

I have no idea what any of this means. :(

I thought I read that 400W would be more than enough...
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XMEN Gambit
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Post by XMEN Gambit »

400W is, I think, about right. You don't want to add too many drives or cards to it, as I think that's a very power-hungry vid card. CPU's not as bad as the Intel alternative, though.

Dual-channel is not worth double the cost of single in and of itself. And you want PC3200 (DDR 400) or higher. Something like this for $115 would work fine - and that's just the first one I spotted. Corsair's an excellent brand, too.

As far as what would bring that to its knees, not much. If you play at anything less than 1600x1200 resolution, there's nothing I know of out there that will strain it below a playable framerate. (disclaimer: aside from the occasional brief ridiculous-particle-effects explosion or the like. You can ALWAYS overload a vid card when you layer too many effects in a high action shot.)
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Post by XMEN Ashaman DTM »

That more expensive memory is that way because it's getting somewhat harder to find. That's not to say that it's a good choice. It's definitely NOT what you are looking for for your system, as Gambino the Great said.

You'll want at least PC3200, and at least 1 GB of the stuff. 2 GB would be better, and would probably be the best upgrade after a year or so of owning that system. You're just a small fraction away from top of the line in terms of desktop computing power (without any fancy cooling or overclocking). Though more RAM will only allow you to run future games more smoothly, and any other things that involve manipulating large amounts of data.

The other thing to note is that with the 939-pin socket, you can swap it out in the future for a 939 dual-core chip (Athlon64 X2). But the first round of dual-core chips won't offer too much in the way of a performance increase because they are the first stab at the engineering problems associated with those chips. AMD's internal quality assurance testing is good, but they can't catch all of the possible CPU+hardware combinations and software uses out there. Plus, you're better off waiting a few months for the price to drop for the dual-core chips when you do your future-upgrade.

:D


The other issue to remember is that you can get a version of Windows XP that is made for 64 bit computing. The only problem is that hardware manufacturers are still behind the curve for writing new drivers that work in the 64 bit environment that you have with WinXP 64 and an Athlon 64 chip. To fully utilize your computing power, you'll need to run linux.
The plus side is that you're on the cutting edge of the transition to 64-bit stuff and it's only a matter of time until programs are modified and re-compiled to make full use of the 64 bit environment.


As far as the PC 3200, PC 3500, PC 4000, etc...

The designation used to be related to how much data could be pushed across the memory bus in one second (PC 1600, PC2100 were 1.6 Gb/s and 2.1 Gb/s, respectively). The bus data rate is related to the clock speed of the bus, so if you increased the clock speed of the bus (and used Double-Data-Rate memory chips), you would have a higher amount of data that could be pushed around. Nowadays, PC3200 effectively operates at 200 MHz bus speed, but it's almost the exact same chips used a few years ago. (They're refined versions of the old designs, so they can handle the faster switching of the voltages on the bus.) The bus is running at 200 MHz, but the chips are DDR, which basically means you get twice the rate of the bus (400 MHz). Which gives you:

8 bits * 400 MHz = 3200 Mbits / second or 3.2 Gbits / s.

for PC 3500, the bandwidth should be 3.5 Gbits / s. (A bus clock of 437.5 MHz / 2 (for DDR) = 215.25 MHz)

for PC 4000, the bandwidth should be 4 Gbits / s. (A bus clock of 500 MHz / 2 (for DDR) = 250 MHz)

The bus clock is what frequency your CPU is being pumped at, and I believe the PCI Express bus is pumped very close to that. On some motherboards you can only change two (memory/system bus, and PCI Express). On others it is three (PCI Express, memory, and system bus independent of memory).

In general, go for good quality and price of the kind of ram your motherboard can work with (PC3200 in your case). If you are going to do any overclocking, you'll want RAM that is capable of running faster (PC 4000). But always try and get dual channel ram; it will help make your next upgrade of more ram that much farther out in the future.
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Post by BlackRider »

thanks for all the help! parts are in the mail!!! (who'da thunk it... I can ship a PC cross country for $20. :P)

I'll give a 3dMark score once I get it together. :)

On my laptop I get 4949 3dMarks in 3dMark2001... (in 3dMark 05 I could only run 1 test out of 4 in the demo. :()

*update* I'm putting all that parts together today except the video card (which arrives on Monday or Tuesday). For the weekend I'm going to play with an old PCI card I have. This one is like 8-12 years old. I may have something newer somewhere. (Can't remember if the better PCI card was Voodoo 2 or GeForce 2.... just can't wait until the last part gets here.)
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