This irritates me...

Ambush Bug · Post by **Ambush Bug** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:35 am

Apply the Golden Rule, folks. Cronos nailed on the head--how would you react were your situations reversed? As in the last thread about this subject, there seems to be two major cruxes to the problem: 1) The definition of the word 'marriage', as interpreted by the State. 2) What marriage actually gets you. As things stand right now, you have the State (in general, with a few exceptions) interpreting 'marriage' in the Biblical sense. Not normally a problem, but since 'marriage' gets you all kinds of benefits benefits from the State, the limited State definition of 'marriage' excludes those that want those same benefits but do not exactly fit the definition. Thus, you get gay people being treated by the State as second-class citizens, which, the way I interpret things, goes directly against the Constitution. That's what's riling homosexuals up at the moment, folks. And remember, the USA is a Democratic Republic and not a direct democracy, which makes issues quite thorny at times. 'Majority > *' does not apply at all times in a Republic. If it did work like that, then we'd still have legal segregation, because blacks do not comprise the majority of our population. Instead, the squeaky and determined wheel gets the grease... and homosexuals are both. And as an aside... if the USA were a direct democracy, I'd have to get the hell out of it. DD's are unsafe when mass media is around, if you get my drift.

Post by **XMEN Gambit** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 am

Not sexually, but I DO have a basis of people denying me all sorts of things. Mostly having to do with my religion. I personally see this issue as a further attack on those things which the Bible, the basis for my morals, calls right and good. If I have a neighbor who sleeps around and gets careless and pregnant, and decided to murder her child during the first nine months of its life, there's absolutely nothing I can to legally to prevent the death of that child. If the child was actually BORN first, in some cases the difference of only a few days, I could defend it. Murder, pre-meditated, and for convenience's sake. I, and my children, are restricted from excercising certain certain aspects of my religion, such as prayer or sharing our faith, in certain public areas, even though the constitution says that there shall be no laws which favor one religion over another - seems like the judges favor "atheism" as the state religion these days... Did you know that that 10 commandments monument in AL/GA/wherever this summer, over which there was such a big stink, had other religions' stuff on it too? But you didn't hear about that, just the "10 commandments" part. Oh, here's one that's not religion-based. How about racial quotas in companies or school admissions? If I apply for a job or my children apply for school somewhere, we could be denied a spot, even if we're the most qualified or had the higher scores, because some lawmaker decided that if the population is x% white, y% black, and z% hispanic, that those exact same ratios must be maintained in all aspects of our society - regardless of qualifications. Note that if y or z is larger than required, the organization gets praised, but if x is larger it is reprimanded. Seem fair/just/moral to you? So, your average WASP does indeed have a pile of people telling them what they can and can't do, and many of the things with a lot less basis. For the past several years, the media has been pushing the gay agenda. "Not that there's anything WRONG with that" is the phrase from the Seinfeld era, and it is a lie, put it's been so shoved down our throats by the media that people have started thinking that way. Mark my words, it's just one more step down the wrong path. Something worse will be next. You may think from my fervent responses that I hate gays. Nope. I've had friends and coworkers who were, and we'd work together or go have lunch or whatever. I just happen to be convinced that that lifestyle is wrong, and don't appreciate it being in my face, and my children's faces, all the time. I'm also convinced that extramarital hetrosexual sex is wrong, too. I know know many of you do or have participated in that particular activity, and we're still friends, right? And I'm just as protective of my children in that respect as well.

LoS Malthus · Post by **LoS Malthus** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:55 pm

I'm yet another who rarely takes part in discussions like this, but You X-ddods debate stuff more intelligently then most internet forums <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> So, I'm kind of torn, because I agree with alot of what Gambit and Ice have said (in that a lot of this should stay in private, it's not anyone elses business) , despite my being in favor of gay marriage. It really is a matter of semantics, but semantics are important to people. That said, I believe in the system, and if majority says no then you either fight it or accept it and move on. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> The gay friends I have really don't seem to care much. They know in their hearts who they love and who they want to spend their lives with, and thats really what it's all about anyway. This is the only part troubling me: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The current proposal to not allow "marriage" between homosexuals, but rather to define marriage as man + woman and create a "civil union" category for homosexuals, with the benefits traditionally given married couples, seems to limit the difference to semantics. <hr></blockquote> What's the difference between this and seperate but equal schools for Blacks and Whites? IMHO, It wasn't right in the 50's for skin color and seperate but equal isn't right for orientation. <hr /> Real Geeks don't make there own backups. They accept it as karma and move on. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub141.ezboard.com/bxmenclan.sho ... althus>LoS Malthus</A> at: 2/13/04 12:58 pm

Ambush Bug · Post by **Ambush Bug** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:21 pm

Gambit: Allow me to presume I've found the root of your dissent with the following quote and that your following examples (save for the Affirmative Action one) stem from it. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I personally see this issue as a further attack on those things which the Bible, the basis for my morals, calls right and good. <hr></blockquote> 'Attack'? That's the part I have trouble with. Why is someone else's desire to live the way they want to an attack on your beliefs? Are they coming to your house and forcing you live in their fashion? Can't you simply ignore them? Homosexuals aren't going around and killing people to make their point, nor are they attempting to brainwash people into becoming homosexual themselves. What's the point of getting riled up about 'em if they aren't harming you or your family? Now if some gay activist starts going around and kidnapping people and holding them hostage to make the government change their laws, then I'm all for siccing the FBI on him.... just like we would on any other criminal. That isn't happening, so why the angst? We all live in a country that prides itself on being a melting pot. Why try and freeze it solid? Frozen soup isn't very tasty, and it crunches noisily on your teeth.

Post by **XMEN Gambit** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:05 pm

ROFL. While I was actually referring to a spiritual attack, that of Satan influencing our society's principles to drive us farther and farther away from God, I can still show you examples of attacks upon the rights of others. Refer to the post above where I mention that a certain segment of our society insists that a pro-homosexual book be read to children, and the opposite viewpoint doesn't get equal time. This is real. First of all, I'd like to keep our children from having to deal with sexual ideas at all, at least in public school, until they're a little older (this book is aimed at kids up to first or second grade). But if a segment of the population says that "This is OK", and another segment says "No, it's not", then both viewpoints should get equal airtime - seems logical, but for some reason they get all offended by that. I consider that an attack, on my morals and fairness in general. This sort of thing happens on MANY issues, and homosexuality is just one of them.

Ambush Bug · Post by **Ambush Bug** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:45 pm

Thanks for clarifying. What you've pointed out in the schools I'm not sure what to make of. I see your side of this example. Take it up with the principal and the school board? Seems like the only recourse you've got at the moment. Keep in mind your opinon on it would be 'suspect' as a matter of course, since it's coming from a religious standpoint, and religion + schools = Bad Juju in the eyes of the State. You'll have the whole separation of church and State issue to deal with, and I suggest that you frame your argument not from a religious standpoint but a 'equal airtime' standpoint. Personally, in your shoes, I'd argue for the 'pro' book to be not be read at all, rather than arguing for the 'anti' book to be read--you'd never be able to get the latter argument to take with the general public.

Post by **XMEN Gambit** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:49 pm

Oh, it's not happened to me personally. The schools my kids attend are pretty good about stuff like that. But cases just like that (it's an actual book) made a big stink a couple of years ago, mostly on the coasts. But thanks for understanding. I WOULD raise such a stink if it was here! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

XMENPorsche · Post by **XMENPorsche** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:41 am

Some thoughts on homosexuality (you guys knew I'd be along sooner or later, didncha?).... Those of you who know me know that I'm a Christian. It's not something I hide; it's who and what I am. I've had a bunch of thoughts over the homosexual agenda and other issues related to homosexuality for quite some time now. Below is a mixture my own musings along with some information gleaned from a pastor that I know of who has done a pretty in-depth study of the subject matter... (obviously, my thoughts are solely from the perspective of a follower of Jesus Christ) (Let me apologize for this very long post. If you wish to invest the time to read the whole thing you will see that there are plenty of biological and societal factors stacked against the gay lifestyle.) To begin with, the church of Jesus Christ needs to begin our dialogue with an apology to the gay and lesbian community. As believers, we have a very poor track record for handling the issue of homosexuality. The church, by and large, has reacted to the matter in two different extremes, and neither is healthy or helpful. At one end there are the condemning Christians, those who hold up a big, black Bible, yell slurs and accusations, and coldly present the truth of God — minus His love. At the other extreme, there are members of the church of Jesus Christ who, not only condone the homosexual lifestyle, but also ordain gay clergy. These Christians propose that God approves of the gay lifestyle and that because of His love for all people, there should be no condemnation. By not presenting a well-reasoned, loving and biblical response, we, the community of believers, have done a profound disservice to all those in the gay community, including their families and friends. We have either been all truth with no love, or we have been all love with no truth. Both are extremely destructive errors for which we owe a sincere apology. Our goal, then, should be to speak the truth, based on facts, with and through an attitude of love. We must think clearly through this issue, examining the findings of both medical and social science. We must see what God has to say through the Bible and listen to what the homosexual community believes. Our dialogue must begin with honesty and mutual respect. To take this step we must first understand the positions taken by the pro-homosexual community and the presuppositions that support that position. We will then lovingly present the biblical position. THE GAY PERSPECTIVE: Homosexuality is a moral, alternative sexual orientation People who promote and approve of the homosexual lifestyle begin with this premise. Homosexuality, for them, is not wrong in any just moral sense; it is just different. PRESUPPOSITIONS: 1. Being gay is not a choice. A gay person is born that way. Sexual preference is a matter of genetic makeup, and therefore is neither willed nor controllable. 2. Given that homosexuality is a matter of genetics, then it is a type of identity. “It’s not what I do - it is who I am.” 3. If God (or genetics) makes a person a homosexual, then homosexuality is normal and natural, and simply an alternative to the more mainstream orientation. 4. If it is an alternative lifestyle that is not willed or chosen, then it is a minority lifestyle that should be protected by the same rules and laws afforded other minorities. Homosexuality, then, is a civil rights issue. This belief is crucial to understanding the debate as it is occurring today. HISTORIC CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE: Homosexuality is an immoral sexual orientation prohibited by God. The community of Bible-believing Christians holds that there are moral absolutes. Along with most other major religions, Christians believe that homosexuality violates a moral absolute and, therefore, is prohibited not only for the protection of mankind but also for the protection of culture and society. PRESUPPOSITIONS: 1. Being gay is a choice. It is a learned behavior. It may be the result of many societal factors, but at some level it is a chosen lifestyle. 2. If homosexuality is a choice people make, it is not an identity. It is not “who I am” but “what I do.” 3. This choice is abnormal and unnatural and not in keeping with what God has ordained in His created order. It is not an alternative to mainstream behavior. 4. It is not an alternative lifestyle but a destructive chosen lifestyle that brings pain, premature death and broken relationships. 5. As such, homosexuality is not a civil rights issue, but a moral issue. Here we have framed the two opposing beliefs, each one being adhered to by intelligent, well-meaning people. We can see this debate played out daily in the tension over government laws, community ordinances, and public school policies. If we are to understand why we believe what we believe, then we need to address the facts that underlie the presuppositions of these arguments. They both cannot be valid. EXAMINING THE EVIDENCE THE SEVEN PREMISES BEHIND THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE: MYFH OR FACT? In the research and data which is often used to justify the homosexual lifestyle, there can be established at least seven premises. It is these premises that we will seek to understand and examine in the light of scientific and medical facts, and in the light of our understanding of God’s laws through the Bible. With the evidence and data we have today, we can speak truthfully, lovingly and accurately to our gay friends. PREMISE #1: Homosexuality is a matter of birth or genetics. In 1993, this statement gained prominent and popular attention when Newsweek Magazine devoted an entire issue to homosexuality and scientific studies. They reviewed the work of Simon Le Vay, a professed homosexual, who set out to prove the biological basis of homosexuality by studying the autopsies of thirty-five people who had died of AIDS. Nineteen of these people were known to be gay, while sixteen were supposedly from a heterosexual lifestyle. Le Vay found that the hypothalamus of the brain was smaller in homosexuals as compared to the heterosexuals, and thus concluded that there was a genetic basis for homosexuality. The acceptance of Le Vay’s theory was limited in the scientific community, as he was unable to verify whether those people in each group were truly homosexual or heterosexual. In addition, the variations in brain size varied significantly within each group, and so his conclusions were not well founded. Many honest researchers have found this study to be seriously flawed. Not only is there not a clearly identifiable “control” group in this study, but it assumes, rather than proves, a cause/effect relationship between the hypothalamus and homosexuality. Others point out that homosexual behavior could well affect the hypothalamus’ size. Still others hold that the limited size of the study and flawed procedure make the conclusions anecdotal at best, not scientific. A second study often used to support this premise is by Dr. Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and Dr. Richard Pillard of Boston University. They reported that in identical male twins, when one is homosexual, then the other is three times more likely to be homosexual than a fraternal twin. Therefore, the study concluded, there must be a genetic link. The flaws of the study were that the sample size was quite small, that 48% of the identical twins were not homosexual, and that no account was given of shared early home life and upbringing or early environmental factors. Most researchers argue that the percentages work just as well against a genetic connection as in support of one. 2 Other research indicates that there is simply no correlation between homosexual behavior and genetics. Studies conducted by Johns Hopkins University, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, pro ¬homosexual scientist Evelyn Hooker and Masters and Johnson all deny the genetic link. They agree the connection between genetics and homosexuality is a myth. 3 And if genetics is not the answer, it is even more logical that, as has been found, early childhood and environmental factors have a profound effect on sexual orientation. Some of these factors are as follows: a. The most influential player in the family unit for both young boys and young girls is the father. Early sexual identity is disproportionately shaped by the father, and one of the common threads among many homosexuals is an absent father, a distanced father, or a father that is physically present but not emotionally engaged. b. Early childhood sexual abuse is another key factor leading to homosexuality. Many children who have suffered this abuse find that their first sexual experience was with the same sex. c. Low self-esteem, often present in the dysfunctional family, appears in early childhood inclinations. This leads to a consequent need for acceptance. d. A failure to bond with the same sex parent is present in many homosexuals. A young girl needs a nurturing mother figure and a young boy needs a strong masculine affirming father. If children do not receive this at home they will search elsewhere to fulfill this need. e. Early sexual stimulation has been found to be a common occurrence among homosexuals. Research has shown that those who masturbated very early in life have more of a tendency to have a same sex inclination toward gratification. f. Environmental factors have leaped to the forefront today as leading influences toward homosexuality. Consider the media, the music, the culture and the education in our schools. We observe people like Dennis Rodman, who is a star on the basketball court one day, and puts on a dress for his book signing the next. Celebrities like Madonna and Melissa Etheridge outspokenly encourage bisexuality. Our public school system encourages children to get in touch with latent homosexual feelings, and not to deny bisexual urges. All of this has a profound influence on children as they move through the vulnerable and difficult years of puberty. PREMISE #2: Ten percent of the population is gay. The consequent deduction from this premise is that 10% of the people can’t be wrong. A 1948 Kinsey Report established the 10% statistic, which was quoted in the 1993 Newsweek issue. Since 1993 this has become a favored figure, often used by the entertainment industry, media, celebrities and schools. When a young person has homosexual feelings, when there are issues from his or her childhood which are unresolved, the assumption is that he or she must belong to the ten percent. The problem is that the Kinsey Report is critically flawed, and the ten-percent figure has been proven false. The Kinsey survey was conducted of a voluntary prison population. Not only was this not representative of the population at large, but would include a significantly higher number of people with dysfunctional backgrounds. By contrast, in 1990 the U.S. Census Bureau found less than 1% of the population to be homosexual. In 1991 the University of Chicago did an extensive study and found that 1.7% of the population had a homosexual orientation.4 Finally, in 1994 the American sex survey, the most exhaustive piece of work that’s ever been done in this country about people’s sexual orientation, found that 2.7 % of the population were homosexual men and 1.3% were homosexual women. We need to tell the young person struggling with their sexual identity that they have been lied to by our popular culture. The truth is not that one in ten people are functioning as homosexuals. In fact, that the number may be more like 1.5 to 2 people out of 100. PREMISE #3: The homosexual lifestyle is a normal, healthy “alternative” to heterosexuality. What is being communicated today is that the homosexual lifestyle is not bad or wrong, but just different. It is promoted as a healthy and normal alternative choice. Because of the serious consequences of this premise, I want to be as clear and honest with the facts as possible. I apologize for the blunt and graphic nature of these facts, but it has been a deathblow to many of our young people that these facts have not been presented more forthrightly. MEDICAL DATA: • 78% of male homosexuals have had or presently have a sexually transmitted disease. • 50% of homosexuals have gonorrhea. Homosexuals are 23 times more likely to contract a sexually transmitted disease than heterosexuals. • 2/3 of all AIDS cases are the direct result of homosexual contact. • The rate of sexually transmitted disease in San Francisco is 22 times higher that the national average. • Lesbians are 14 times more likely to contract syphilis. • Lesbians are 4 times more likely to have scabies. • The average age of death for gay males in this country is 42. • The average death rate among the gay population is 50% greater than the nation. There are clearly anatomical considerations for these statistics. It has to do with sexual practice. The type of sex practiced by homosexuals goes against how God created the human body to work. When you violate God’s design there is always a price tag. 98% of homosexuals practice oral sex and 90% practice anal sex. This is simply biological suicide. The rectum was not designed to accommodate the thrusting of a penis. During such activities the anal wall is inevitably torn and bruised, giving sperm and germs direct access to the bloodstream. Since the anal wall is only one cell thick, sperm quickly penetrates the wall, causing massive immunological damage to the body’s T and B cell defense systems. This does not occur during vaginal sex because of the multilayer construction of the vagina. Facts and statistics show homosexual practice to be a death sentence. We are not talking about doing things “just a little differently.” On this level homosexuality is not just a political issue, or a civil rights issue, or even a vague moral issue. We are talking about a sexual practice, which is embodied in a destructive lifestyle, which leads to physical, emotional and spiritual death. The anatomy of the human body, its design and reproductive purposes, leads us to understand that on intellectual, medical, and biological grounds, the homosexual lifestyle is neither normal nor healthy. The church today harms these people grievously when it accepts as normal a lifestyle that will ultimately lead to such human pain and suffering. That is love without truth. PREMISE #4: The Bible may condemn lustful, indiscriminate homosexuality, but not loving, committed homosexual practice. This premise evolves from a rationalizing movement within the church. A number of denominations teach that although the God of love condemns indiscriminate sex of any type, He approves of committed love between two devoted people, regardless of their gender. This movement seeks to revise biblical texts so that only same-sex relationships that are lust-driven, rather than love-driven, are prohibited. So we need to look at God’s word and learn what Scripture says about homosexuality. Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And so we see by design that God created two sexes. Genesis 2:18-24 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” ....So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. God solved the problem of loneliness when He created a heterosexual partner for Adam in order to complete him. In this way, a woman draws out of a man what another man cannot draw out of a man. And in the same sense a man draws out of a woman what another woman never can. The creation story gives us an early indication of God’s desire to complete man through His design. This completion is the joining of male and female in a heterosexual relationship. Next, we will look at four biblical texts which clearly teach that homosexual practice, according to God’s wisdom, love, compassion and divine law, is absolutely immoral. Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 - Here the Old Testament law states.’ “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman: that is detestable.” And again, “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” In Leviticus we find the Old Testament laws about purity and sexual conduct which God had laid out for the people of Israel. By invoking the consequence of capital punishment, God gives us some indication of how unnatural He views the homosexual practice to be and how clearly He detests it. And, although Leviticus is filled with ceremonial law that the current church no longer practices, it also states God’s moral law, which is consistent throughout all of Scripture. Romans 1:26-27 - Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul writes in graphic, clear-cut form that homosexuality is actually an evidence that we have turned away from God to follow our own desires. 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. In this New Testament verse we have a clear, simple statement of fact. As Bible-believing Christians, we cannot ignore the overwhelming evidence that God condemns the practice of homosexuality. But it is just as important for us to recognize that God equally condemns many other sins, including immoral heterosexual practices. God no more condemns the gay person than He does those of us who idolize our cars, or worship our money, or lust with our eyes, or are greedy in our consumption, or swindle in our business. As believers, we need to treat homosexuality as we do other sins. We need to be forthright and truthful and present that truth through love. Out of fear or taboo we often hide from the chance to share the truth. Members of the gay community are potential brothers and sisters in Christ and we need to have the courage and the knowledge to share God’s love with each one of them. Our God is not a God who is motivated to remove pleasure and love. Our God is not trying to take away someone’s fun or remove valid alternatives. Our God so loves us all that he wants to protect us and provide the best for us. If you love your homosexual friend, you will risk the relationship in order to tell them the truth as God has revealed it. But you must say it all in love. PREMISE #5: Feelings and attractions to the same sex must mean I’m a homosexual. Imagine what it is like today to reach pre-puberty or early puberty and to have a confusion of feelings about your own sexuality. Unaware of the normal occurrence of these feelings, imagine you arrive in your health class at school and are confronted by the erroneous statistic that 10% of the people in your class are homosexuals. You are told these tendencies are genetic, and therefore cannot be changed. Further, you learn that if you are having some feelings of attraction toward the same sex, you are probably part of the 10%. Obviously, this line of reasoning produces powerful effects in the lives of our adolescents. And it is false. That a young person has same-sex feelings, urges or fantasies does not mean in any way, shape, or form that they are gay. In the normal years of growing up, we all need to bond with members of both sexes. Those who fail to bond, who are abused or who lack significant role models, may search for satisfaction of those developmental needs in other areas. This search can surface as homosexual feelings or as promiscuity or as workaholism. These are temptations we have, these are not who we are. If a young person at the age of fourteen has a temptation to steal, this does not mean he is a kleptomaniac. Nor does it mean that he is a career criminal. In the same sense, if a young person has a loving feeling toward someone of the same sex, it does not mean that he or she is gay. To suggest so is to do a great disservice to our youth.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp PREMISE 6: “Once a homosexual, always a homosexual.” Both extensive research and the records of many, many people who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle refute this premise. The greatest hope, though, is given to us in the Bible. In 1 Corinthians, after naming many of the sins that are an affront to God, including homosexuality, we are given one of the most hopeful and joyful verses of all Scripture. In verse 11 of chapter 6 we are told: “and such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God (NAS).” Let us remember here that this was a letter to the church in Corinth. Corinth was the San Francisco of its day, with both male and female prostitutes in abundance. Within the city, a person could be involved in an orgy any time of the day or night, with their choice of sexual orientations. As Corinthian citizens came to Christ, they had as much baggage as any of us could imagine. These people were not just homosexuals, but adulterers, idol worshippers, thieves, robbers. They were people just like us; they were sinners. But Paul dismisses their past completely. At the moment they placed their faith in Christ, they were washed and sanctified by Him and made sinless before God. You see, the God of the Bible offers hope. Homosexuality is not a new sin, an unforgivable sin, or a lifestyle that can’t be changed. There are many people in the church today that have come out of a homosexual past. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ and they represent the hope we all have through Jesus Christ. In fact, the best information and research I received in preparing this booklet came from members of our church who have come out of the lifestyle and whom God is using in very significant ways. PREMISE #7: All Christians are “homophobic” and could never fully accept a person who struggles with gay feelings, fantasies, or practice. The tragedy of today’s dialogue between the gay community and the church is that this premise is too often true. We began with an apology. With knowledge and understanding we need to move toward more open communication. Both communities need to rid themselves of the stereotypes of the past. As followers of Christ, we need to understand that the average homosexual is not “out there” but “right here” in our hometown, and he or she needs our love and our help. Most homosexuals are not leading violent marches and demonstrating on the streets. The average gay man or woman is a professional person with an excellent education and an above-average income. But this same person has deep, hidden struggles that are a very real problem. Many gays don’t want to be in the lifestyle and struggle to get out. But they fear they can’t, or if they do, they’ll be stigmatized forever. As a church, we need to communicate to gays that we are willing to “step up to the plate” and speak the truth, but that we are committed to letting love, acceptance, and God’s grace rule our words and actions. We need to tell them that just as many of us have left sinful patterns and habits behind, so can they. We must commit to stand with them, overcoming our own prejudice and fear. Together we will see God bring forgiveness and transformation to lives in need of healing. <table *****'Filter: Shadow(Color=#0000FF,Direction=225)'><tr><td><img src=http://www.xmenclan.org/avatars/porsche2.jpg align=left> XMENPorsche[DTM] Retired Leader - XMEN Retired Leader - DTM Eater of Chicken Fried Steak "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky "One of the hallmarks of a disciple of Jesus Christ is that he always leaves things better than he found it." "The great need in our day is to move from knowing about God to a knowledge of God." "Your problems are the window through which God will shake your life and allow you to see Him like never before." - Chip Ingram</td></tr></table>

XMEN Ashaman DTM · Post by **XMEN Ashaman DTM** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:53 am

One thing that I'd like to add to what Porsche wrote... I listen to a radio show called Loveline on occasion. The show is hosted by a doctor, and a personality (who is a former host of The Man Show) named Adam Corolla. Adam is there for just being a regular guy. Dr. Drew is there because the show is his way of helping people out. Now the majority of people that call into the show to talk about their problems are teenagers or people just out of their teens. If you listen to this show, you realize that there are a LOT of screwed up people out there. One of the common threads to people that are gay is that there was some sort of sexual abuse of those people when they were younger. It's almost a guarantee that if someone is gay, that they were molested when they were younger. Now, I don't know if a kid that was messed with, even if they were messed with when they were a baby, will turn out gay. But I do know that every single person that has told the hosts that they were gay turned out to have had some sort of sexual abuse. In my mind, that is a definite cause-effect relationship. The fact that a good percentage of people that are gay were molested should say something. It should say that the real issue is actually how children are raised. Also, a breakdown on what Adam and Dr. Drew have noticed in their doing the radio show is as follows: -Children that were molested ALWAYS have problems. -Very few of those children will grow up to be mostly normal. -Most of those children will grow up to molest other children unless they are treated with counseling and therapy. -A small portion of those kids that were molested turn out to be gay. My personal opinion is that there is some sort of predisposition that people have to being gay. Whether it's genetics or a fluke of how the brain is assembled during fetal development, I have no clue. The other thing that affects how a person will turn out after being molested as a child is when they were molested. Please realize that this is information gathered from listening to the radio show. Dr. Drew has been doing the radio show for about 16 years. So I'd say that although his data has not been officially tabulated, he's listened to a LOT of people and has developed a sort of sixth sense about where a person's problems stem from. In other words, I trust the guy when he states a correlation. How does this fit in to what Porsche wrote? Well... Porsche brought up the fact about genetics. I'm not sure if that's where being gay stems from. But I am convinced that once a person is "fixed" as being gay, that there is no changing that. Their brain chemistry, neural pathways, and their brain's physical structure can't be altered. But you can't really prove that it's either nature or nurture. After hearing countless people talk about this though, I'd have to side with nurturing as the primary means to fix the state of a person so that they will eventually be gay. Also, I am a firm believer in children needing both a male and female influence in their lives. Or masculine and feminine influences. I know that because my biological parents divorced when I was young that not having a mom around may have messed me up a bit. I don't know how much, and I've talked with people that would know. They said that I seem pretty normal. But it kind of makes me wonder sometimes, you know? I'm not sure how a child raised is better off or worse off when raised by two parents of the same sex, over a single parent. But I DO know that two parents are better than one. ESPECIALLY when those two parents have a healthy relationship (ie. not fighting all the time or where one dominates the other). I don't know how kids raised by same sex parents will turn out. But I don't feel that I have the right to deny those same sex parents from raising kids. This is said given that the parents aren't child molesters or anything like that.

XMEN Ravok99 · Post by **XMEN Ravok99** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:34 pm

Laws without standards. My belief is that stealing is wrong. Why is it wrong? Is it wrong because it offends me? Is it wrong because of my religion? Is it wrong because of its lack of respect to other individuals? Is it wrong because it forces someone that sells objects to raise their prices to better waive the risks? What standards are laws to be set forth in the future? The thought that gays wish to be married to garner a tax-break, alimony from potential divorce, and such things is semantic to me. In these days and times when most relationships fail and divorce is rampant - even marriage as a Union where I give my Word before God and Witnesses and sign a contract stating such as witnessed by a Clergy of the Church and with a blessing that our 'first kiss' be upon the altar in the sight of God and men? That is religious, but many look upon it and see what these modern times have turned it into. So, I believe that same sex marriages are not what I know to experience. For that 'first kiss' at the altar and the subsequent 'honeymoon' where me and my Wife go to bring our bonds together in the hopes of creating a future for the world with the Lord's blessing of children of our seed, is an entirely different matter than a same-sex relationship. They are not equal. They are not the same. I do not care what the Law officially states in this matter, but as a Christian who believes in this ideal, in this innocence of being - in this Ceremony - there are things that are more than what the Laws of our land now state. For, in removing the Law from the Ceremony, I feel the Law is no longer serving the people for which it was originally written. That is to encourage a man and a woman to unify themselves for life in a commitment before God and Law and men. In these days, that commitment is made too lightly, in my belief. We find children with so many step-parents, or lost in so many custody battles, and it is ignored what anger and frustration and disillusionment has stemmed from the seperation of man and woman from their Word and their Promise before Judge and Clergy. And now this? Same-sex marriages seems innocent enough, I suppose. But it further seperates our society from moving towards a more healthy and long-lived lifestyle, and it may further confuse and frustrate children of foster homes, and I know about foster homes. I have gone through the system. The Law only sees the Letter. The Letter goes forth and the Proclomation is sent. So, foster children, once same-sex marriages are fully accepted, may find themselves in a family that is against their religion, for the Law proclaims its Letter, and the foster care system is based upon availability, and not religious preferences of any sort. Perhaps it is simply semantics at work, and these individuals have a right to perform their own style of ceremony, and their own types of rules. But to say that a marriage for gays is equal to a marriage of heterosexuals is to mistake the union of man and woman to bring forth children, and what that union means to the future of our nation, and to who and what we become in years and times ahead. I will never say these two concepts are equal. "Patience is a virtue ... for other people." -Ravok

Ambush Bug · Post by **Ambush Bug** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:41 pm

Porche, I don't mind posts that use the Bible as background... but if you're going to quote statistics, quote your sources. Kinsey's report may have indeed been flawed, but since it was a statistical thing, I cannot simply take your word for it. You got a bibliography on hand? Keep in mind I treat these threads like my old debate classes, and quoting statistics without providing your sources was an instant failing grade as well as rating an ass-chewing after class. --- As an aside, I can tell you right off the bat why some/many homosexuals do not like interfacing with the Church in any way shape or form; they don't like being patronized, and the Church as a whole has a very bad habit of doing that while acting righteous. Not the way to win friends and influence enemies. Hell, it's the same reason I do not like dealing with the Church in any way, shape or form, and I am a Christian myself, and a straight one at that.

XMENPorsche · Post by **XMENPorsche** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:02 pm

Sorry, Bug. The statistics came from a pastor named Chip Ingram, Ph.D. His resources are as follows: 1. David T. Moore, Five Lies of the Century, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers Inc., 1995): 227. 2. Ibid: 227-228. 3. Ibid: 226. 4. Margaret L. Usdonsky, “Gay Couples, by the Numbers,” USA Today (12 April, 1993): 8A. 5. Philip Elmer-DeWitt, “Now The Truth About Americans and Sex,” Time (17 October, 1994): 68.

FaLLGuY · Post by **FaLLGuY** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:09 am

I think your all gay!<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> <img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/planetburt ...

XMEN Iceman · Post by **XMEN Iceman** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:10 pm

/me slaps FG upside the head with a 60lb concrete chocolate-covered tuna. <img src=http://www.boomspeed.com/natila/falldownlaugh.gif ALT=":roll">

Maticus22 · Post by **Maticus22** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:21 pm

lol

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